Ep. 6 – Womaness – Reaching the Elusive Menopause Consumer, with Sally Mueller.

Transcript

Intro

Welcome to The Elusive Consumer podcast. Ellie’s guest today is Sally Mueller, founder and CEO of the menopause brand Womaness. They’ll discuss Sally’s path to entrepreneurship, how she built a business targeting an underserved audience and menopositivity in reaching elusive consumers. Let’s get started on The Elusive Consumer podcast.

Ellie:

I’m going to jump straight into this because I have so many questions for you, and I am so excited to have you here with us today, particularly because the audience that your company targets is such an elusive consumer group. So I’m very keen to hear your thoughts about data, how you collect data and how that impacts your work and your product innovation. But before we talk about Womaness, I’d love to hear a bit more about your background and your entrepreneurial journey.

Sally:

Great. Well, thank you, Ellie. It’s really fun to be part of your podcast. My background actually started at Target Corporation right out of college, and I was a merchant at Target for about ten years in apparel. And then, I moved over to the marketing area for the next 15 years and had an amazing career in marketing. I was really responsible for a lot of the fashion marketing initiatives, the designer program that brought in the likes of Isaac Mizrahi, Missoni and many other designers in between. My team was responsible for all the marketing of those programs, and I just learned a lot about building brands, whether it was private label brands or partnership brands during that time, and decided to start my own business in 2010 and leave a beloved brand that I worked for 25 years. But I felt like it was time to do something more entrepreneurial when I was 45.

So I left and started my own business, and I wanted to move to the brand side to really help retailers like Target and several others, and that was my focus. So, over the next twelve years, I  actually helped bring some really great brands to retail, such as Who, What, Where, which is known as a fashion media company and brought it into physical products, but also incubated some really incredible new brands. My team and I at Whot Wear helped create Versed, which is a clean skincare brand that’s sold at Target, Walmart and other retailers and several other initiatives. So it was really a great experience. Those twelve years of owning my own business, eventually going in-house at Who, What, Where, and really creating these incredible brands came about while I was going through Menopause and having my own experience. And then so it’s really a business story, but it’s also a personal story.

So, the long and short of it is I was experiencing Menopause. I knew that I was in menopause and beyond the first stage, which is perimenopause, but what I didn’t realise was all of these things that I was experiencing were related to menopause. I thought they were just stressed, and I kind of blamed a hectic travel schedule. So it was sleep issues, it was night sweats, it was stress and anxiety. It was low libido. And all of those things are kind of interrelated. When you start not sleeping well, you start to affect every aspect of your life. But it wasn’t until I went to a doctor at the Mayo Clinic that I started to really understand that those symptoms were really part of menopause. And it was very common for women to experience those kinds of symptoms. I mean, those are some of the most common symptoms.

And the doctor was so gracious about educating me about menopause, making me not feel alone. And then, at the end of the appointment, she suggested that I check out some over-the-counter products on Amazon. And I did. I checked those out when I got home, and I thought, I am never buying any of these products. These products are not made with clean formulations. They are really outdated. I was very savvy at this point because I had just helped create a clean skincare brand, and I was really steeped in the knowledge of the beauty industry and the personal care industry and what was going on. So I thought, boy, why am I not doing this? Why am I not tackling this space? I am squarely in it. I know so many women, all my friends and colleagues, and just so many people in my community who are in it.

And I should really tackle this space. It must be a huge space. And that’s when I really set out to address it. So that’s my story of how I got from post-college to where I am now. And it’s been a really exciting career, a very long career. I’ve been obviously working for, what, 35 years or so, but this has been the most rewarding, I would say, is really helping women feel and look better.

Ellie

Right. And I want to touch upon that because I read that one of your core missions, beyond that educational piece that you just mentioned, is a concept of menopositivity. Can you tell us a little bit more about that and what that means for you personally as well as your organisation?

Sally
Yeah, so that really came about my co-founder, Michelle, and I really believed that it was so important for us to reframe the conversation around menopause kind of and make it obviously less taboo, for sure, but also not fall into the trap of the stereotypical like menopause jokes. We wanted it to be uplifting. We were both branding people, and when we looked around at even the imagery that was available when were first concepting womanists, it was appalling. Women were just portrayed in such outdated ways. And we know that’s not how we are today, that we’re very cool, modern, beautiful women that are 40 to 75 and plus years old. And we wanted to really celebrate that. And so we thought of menopause activity is our way of expressing that it’s this outlook on life, it’s this more radiant view of this stage of life because so many women told us it was a really incredible stage of change, not just physical change, but also the mental change that goes with it.

Just like if you’ve always wanted to start your own business, now’s the time to do that. Or if you’re going to retire and travel the world, now’s the time to do it. It’s this kind of epiphany that a lot of women have, and it’s kind of like shedding all the things that have been holding you back. And so that’s what menopause activity is all about. And it’s really based on the goal of being educated about menopause, but also inspired by being around the right community. And we believe that if you’re educated and inspired by the community, you’re going to have a much easier experience going through menopause.

Ellie

Right. How do you go about getting that message out and building trust in a community, especially when there are certain challenges in the advertising space?

Sally

Right.

Ellie
Tell us a bit about those challenges and how you’ve gone about building that trust in that space.

Sally

Yeah, well, there’s so many challenges. First of all, reaching our women is really not easy. Right. It’s not like reaching a Gen Z or Millennial consumer. Right, and there are challenges with that, too. But I had this career of really focusing on more of the younger generation, so I understood the playbook of partnering with influencers. And obviously, today, TikTok can be so explosive. That isn’t what happens with our consumers. She is very sceptical. She really does her homework, she does a lot of research before she buys one product. And our product is really affordable, so it might be a little bit easier for her to make that hurdle. But still, and I totally respect this, she’s so discerning that she doesn’t even want to buy $29 face cream until she’s done the homework on it. And so it’s a different mindset than the younger consumer, and it’s a different way of reaching her.

But the advertising world does not make it easy. We obviously have to advertise in a lot of different ways. We spend a lot of money on Meta, which is the owner of Facebook and Instagram, as your audience probably knows. And we can’t advertise some of our products, they won’t approve our ads. Anything that is related to sexual wellness, sometimes even our supplements, don’t get approved. And we’re here to try to help women feel better. And sexual wellness is part of feeling better, too, obviously. It’s vaginal dryness, it’s a symptom. And even without the sexual part of the story, we still can’t advertise a lot of those products. So there’s a lot of us in the industry that are tired of these advertising policies, that we’re trying to make a lot of change, but it’s hard. We have to run a business at the same time.

But I think it’s so challenging but so exciting at the same time to try to reach our consumers and build that trust. And I think we finally, since we’re the consumers too, it was a little bit more obvious to us about how to do that, like outstanding customer service voices that they trust. So, don’t think about it as an influencer strategy. Think about it as these women that they trust already, and we’re just telling their story. Right? And so it’s just a whole different way of marketing to our audience than I would think what a millennial or Gen Z brand is experiencing.

Ellie

Right, so your products are available both in select target stores, Ulta Beauty, I believe, as well as online through your website and so forth. How do you tailor your marketing strategy to reach consumers both offline and online?

Sally

Well, I think our consumer right now I think has really become a pretty sophisticated online shopper. And the reason is she really does. I think maybe during the pandemic, she started to get more comfortable with it like everyone else did. Right. But I think just the marriage of education and information with the product, the more we contextualise that product, given how discerning she is, she wants to buy it right then and there after she’s really become knowledgeable about the product. So it’s an easier shopping experience. I think she still wants to shop in-store. I think sometimes we’re not making it easy for her to find the product she’s looking for in-store. It’s still a very, you know, it’s a very, I would say, cumbersome. You know, it’s not a seamless process right now to shop in a lot of retail stores. So the more we can pull the product together, the more we can tell the story.

I don’t expect to educate her much in the retail environment. I think that’s tough, but it makes it easier for her to shop. And I think that’s really the future is how do we make especially a category that includes like our brand includes supplements, sexual Wellness and Skin and body. So really figuring out how to present the product in-store is the key. But I think it’s now, you asked about the difference. How do you know between those things? You know, you have to almost think about every channel having nuances, even know Facebook versus Instagram versus TikTok versus all of these other even within social platforms. So it’s important that you really figure out that nuance between all the different channels.

Ellie

Right. I want to talk a little bit about data. So, as a data-driven podcast, obviously, we’re going to be curious about how you leverage data market research to create products that cater to the specific needs of your target audience. Can you share some insights into your process?

Sally

Yeah, I mean, we had a process obviously still today, but it’s very different today now that we have actual customers. But when we first started, we did a lot of focus groups across the US. To really understand not only what women wanted from our brand but what kind of products and what was really paramount with those products. So we knew that they were pretty sophisticated when it came to ingredients, clinically derived ingredients so that we could reference those clinical studies. And that was something that Michelle and I were passionate about anyway. And we knew that we had to be careful with our products around anyone that has breast cancer in their family. So we made all of our products estrogen-free and soy-free to make sure that they were safe for any people who experience any sort of cancer in their family or previous cancer issues.

But we really heard from women that they wanted our line to be affordable so they could buy multiple products for multiple symptoms. So again, we use focus groups at the beginning, but then once we’ve started to get so much feedback from women about what they’re looking for, and it comes from multiple sources, a lot of it is through our interactions daily with our customers. So we really believe that customer service is something so important to this customer. I think they’re shocked when they talk to a human because they’re so used to thinking they’re working with bots, and they actually ask, is this actually a real person behind this phone call? Yes, this is the CEO you’re calling, Sally or Ann, on our team that handles many questions, whether it’s shipping questions or other questions. So it’s so important that we take all of that interaction and we really respond.

We spend a lot of time as a team digesting what we’re hearing from our customers, and then we do a lot of surveys because our customers are so engaged, and really, they’re part of our journey, right? We can’t be successful without them, and they’re part of this movement that we’ve created. So it’s important that we’re listening to, asking for their needs, and responding to their needs. And we try to validate that with any industry market analysis. But when you’re a startup, you can’t afford to subscribe to these super-expensive market data reports. And I wish we could because I’m a numbers geek as well. But you also have to kind of also bring in your own industry expertise. You have to talk to different people who maybe have created certain businesses before around those particular categories to understand what the hurdles are.

And then you have to mainly listen to the customer, right?

Ellie

You mentioned a very important aspect there of the human touch and building that relationship and rapport with your audience. How do you maintain that as you scale?

Sally

Well, it’s a good question. I think we can maintain it. Obviously, we use a platform for all of our customer service to streamline everything. I think right now, we think it’s so important to invest in this, and over time, we could end up having someone. We have someone right now on our staff that I would say probably works part-time on customer service, and then the other part, she works on all the community activities. So she’s very steeped in what the consumer and our customer is looking for. But over time, we can add to that team and scale it that way. But I think it’s not something we’re going to outsource. It’s so important for us to stay connected to our consumers, and I think that’s how big companies start to fail because they aren’t connected anymore, and they’re kind of going down a path where they think they have the answer, and their consumer has changed, and they’re not keeping up with their consumer.

So I really believe it’s an important place for us to invest in.
Ellie
And you talked about the pandemic earlier in terms of how it’s shifted behaviours. What other trends or shifts have you seen in consumer behaviour that have led your company to adapt in different ways?

Sally

Yeah, I think obviously there are so many others. It’s not maybe a trend, but just other factors of the economy. I think that our consumer is not as impacted by the economic situation, but she is. I always say to our team there is a level of impact even though we’re in a need category and we’re in a new category. That’s what I’m so excited about, too. It is just that we are more probably recession-proof, but there still will be an impact. I don’t want to say today that there isn’t a per cent of our consumers that aren’t pulling back. They are. So, it’s important to stay grounded. I think the other thing that I think is a trend that I’m just feeling is just the overwhelming amount of brands out there and products, and no one knows who to trust, no one knows what to believe. And you fall into a trap with all these brands doing kind of the same marketing, and it’s like this direct response marketing.

So it’s a lot of hyperbole, and that’s what I’m trying to be like, the honest brand, the brand we feel we have so much integrity. We’ve put in the best ingredients at active levels. We’ve invested in clinical studies, we’ve invested in testing all of our products with doctors, not just the baseline testing quality and all of those things, but we’ve taken it a step further, so we feel very good about it. But it is, I think, a challenge of just how much our consumer deals with in terms of just a barrage of advertising and really not knowing who to believe. And I feel like that’s a trend that’s about to explode is just this honest approach in advertising and how important that is. And consumers are going to be really voting with their dollars. They’re going to go towards brands they feel they can trust, they’ve had a good experience with, and they’re not always going to fall for the advertising.

So I don’t know what to call it. But I think that’s kind of an undercurrent that’s happening. I think there’s also back to the barrage of products, too. There’s just a need to really streamline for the consumer. And we have about 17 products, and we’re never going to be a company with 35 products. We really want to stay very consolidated. Every product has a role, and we just don’t want to confuse the consumer. So I think that’s also a trend that has been out there for a few years, and some brands are really capitalising on that.

Ellie

Talk a little bit about the stigma that the whole concept of menopause had for years and how that is now starting to shift and change. We’re seeing celebrities. Everyone from Naomi Watts to Michelle Obama and Oprah Winfrey sharing their personal stories. But how about corporations? What responsibility do you think companies in the beauty wellness industry have? And have you seen or noticed any shift in their advertising and highlighting this particular group of women?

Sally

Yeah, and we talk about this a lot internally. It’s just like menopause is kind of part of that. We’re part of the ageing movement as well and celebrating this consumer; whether she’s over 40, menopause doesn’t always also affect just women over 40. You can have menopause; you can go into menopause in your 30s. So we teeter around pro ageing and menopause at the same time. But I do think a lot of beauty companies are starting to see the light around embracing this older consumer and how much buying power she has. And she is willing to switch her beauty routine. She’s not stuck being 100% loyal to her brands. If you compel her through, I think, the right efficacy story or whatever story is, you can get her to move and switch brands. Because I think there was this old perception that it’s impossible to switch her, so why invest in advertising to her?

And that’s not true. But I think a lot of companies are starting to embrace and show this more ageless consumer, which is really exciting to see. Right.

Ellie

And in terms of the consumer, we talk about them as a group of women in a certain age group. And you emphasise an important point in terms of the difference between perimenopause and women in menopause. I also want to touch upon the accessibility and inclusivity aspect. How do you go about making sure that you can promote greater awareness and understanding of menopause across cultures?

Sally

Yeah, well, our goal is just to represent those different cultures. We’ve got to represent different ages. Because you can be in your late 30s, let’s say the sweet spot of going through perimenopause might be your early 40s. Right. And then we have customers in their sixties and seventies. So, we have this huge demographic range. So it’s important that we represent the different cultures. And it comes down to the fact we want women to see themselves in our marketing and really be able to relate to our we because we’re accessibly priced and we’re available in Ulta Beauty and select Target stores. We’re on Amazon, and we sell on QVC womanist.com. We’re really well positioned to be accessibly available as well. So it’s not just a price but also be available where these women are shopping. So, it’s an ongoing effort. We’re not perfect, but we are always striving to reflect our consumers in all of our advertising.

Ellie

Right? And you’ve also started a community on Facebook where women can relate and share stories. Do you think that is a suitable channel? And do you see women of this age group being on that channel these days? Are there any other channels where you try to raise awareness?

Sally

Yes. So the private Facebook group is called the after party, and we called it that because it’s now symbolic of you having more fun at the after party than you do at the actual party. So it was really born out of the desire to connect women to share tips, some of our experts, and just have an open conversation. It’s not really a channel for us to push products or anything like that. It’s really just got women talking to each other and feeling more comfortable with the space. So I do think it’s really playing that think, you know, that is a totally very viable channel for brands. I know a lot of other brands that have private Facebook groups. They don’t always call it the same name as the brand. So they keep this distinction like what we’ve done. But there are so many other ways to get your message out.

We have an incredible, I call it, e-newsletter, but it’s basically our newsletter that goes out, and it’s really important, and women find it really important to get information from our experts. And so we don’t always talk about our products. They also want to learn about our products, but they also want information about menopause and midlife. What books should they read? We bring in other facets of their life that they’re really interested in. So that’s another important channel. Social media, just at large, is an important channel. So, each channel does have its role, and it’s important to be everywhere. That’s what you have to be really everywhere.

Ellie

Right? And I like the idea of calling it after the party to bring the humour out. And I don’t know if you’ve seen that post of Courtney Cox on Instagram where she jokes about the whole menopause aspect. And there’s a lot of that where people have this fear, particularly in the perimenopause age, of what it means to enter your menopause stage. And how do you battle that in terms of the fear of ageing, the fear of what it might mean for you, particularly as you approach that stage of your life?

Sally

I think a lot of women are afraid because they don’t have the knowledge and they’re smart women. We’re all in this together. So much like my own experience, I didn’t feel informed. And I think women want to feel informed. They don’t know where to get the information. Obviously, we’ve invested in so much information. So, I really encourage women to check out our blog on womanist.com. We work with the Mayo Clinic. It’s amazing the experts that we have working with us because we’re all passionate about educating women. So I think that fear subsides to some extent when they feel like they’re in control, they’re more educated, they’re empowered, they’re more in control. I think when they have a bad experience, maybe with their doctor. Maybe their doctor is an OBGYN who helped deliver their children but knows nothing about menopause. That is what we’ve heard is very devastating for a lot of women, where they have to switch doctors and then they start going down this journey of interviewing doctors, maybe not getting the answers that they want.

And it’s only because doctors are not educated themselves in menopause. Very few have. It’s an elective course in residency. So, people must know that it’s hard to find a menopause expert. So, we just encourage women to keep trying to reach out if they need help. We have access to a lot of doctors we know. There’s also NAMS website. It’s called nams.org and also has a directory of menopause experts in each of the major, I think, across the United States. I don’t know, it’s not just major markets, but you can put in your zip code, and it can give you recommendations, but I think that’s what causes the fear and then the lack of conversation. So women do want to talk about, know, they might start out being very shy and scared, but then, boy, they open up and tell you so many things, so it’s just giving them the permission to talk about it.

Ellie

Right. And what can companies or corporations do in terms of workplaces? You touched upon the healthcare providers, but it’s funny because we get advice for various checkups. But how often do you get advice to check your hormone levels, for instance? And what can companies do to encourage their employees to take action?

Sally

Yeah, I think it’s something we published a lot recently about menopause in the workplace. And we will continue providing many stories and articles about it because it’s very underserved. That particular part of menopause is so underserved. So my recommendation is that corporations treat it much like fertility and really provide information to their employees about menopause and start just educating the whole workforce about menopause. Even if you’re a man or younger and are not in it, you should be aware of it. This is another part of women’s health. You might have a colleague with a hot flash in a meeting, and it’s okay. And so everyone needs just to be more aware of it. I think that’s honestly the first step. And then, obviously, down the road, there might be benefits that come along with helping to support women in menopause and other things that companies can do.

The real progressive ones should be on it already. But I think let’s just start with helping corporations educate their workforce, right?

Ellie

And can you talk to us about any particular collaborations or interesting insights you found through market research or your focus groups? We talked earlier about the product innovation side of things, but anything else in particular that research and data awareness has led for your organisation and what impact it has had?

Sally

Yeah, it’s just what we’ve learned is much more about the media. How do we in the celebrity role, too, with a brand like ours? What we’ve heard from women is they want to hear from real women. They really don’t respond to celebrities. And we live in a culture where it’s very celebrity-driven. We live in a world where the brand solution always becomes, well, you need a celebrity attached to your brand. And while we bring in celebrities and have relationships with celebrities, we’re about real women for the most part. And that’s what makes our brand so different. And a lot of that came back or was reinforced by just all the research that we did and hearing from our consumer on what she really wants from us. We obviously hear a lot of feedback and data about what kind of symptoms they’re experiencing.

We know one of the top symptoms they want addressed is weight gain. And we don’t have a product per se for weight gain. So we’ve really doubled down on providing content. And we have some partnerships in the weight area that I think really provide a lot of value to our customers. So we’re not capitalising on that necessarily from a sales perspective. But we know it’s so important to provide these partnerships, this content, this information, and this support because it ultimately is servicing our customers. And we don’t have a product because there really isn’t a product that is the magic pill that’s safe and that we’re going to offer. So again, that’s how we use data: just really hearing what her needs are, what she is looking for, how we reach her, and when we reach her. We know our customer loves travelling, loves cooking, and she’s multi-dimensional.

She’s dealing with a lot of what we call the sandwich generation. Not that’s a unique term that’s been out there for years, but it is true. Like she’s dealing with taking care of ageing parents. She’s got teenagers. Perhaps at home still. And it is a stressful time in her life because she’s got her own changes, right, and she’s dealing with bookends of responsibility. So again, it’s just a matter of responding to it and ensuring we make her life easier. Right.

Ellie

And in terms of her and who she is, you talked earlier about the different ages. Let’s talk about the generations. Have you seen a shift in how the millennials and Gen X perceive menopause and want to learn more about it versus the boomers, for instance?

Sally

Oh, yes, there’s rightfully so, a big difference in the generations. I’m a boomer, my co-founder is a Gen X, and we have on our team, we have Gen X, and then we have Millennials and even Gen Z. It’s so fun to see the difference between the generations. But I would say what really pulls everyone together is the unifying factor is that people do want to talk about it. The boomers are probably less so because they’re a little embarrassed still. They’re so scarred by so many years of hiding it under the rug. But the younger generation and Gen X are like, let’s go for it, let’s talk about it. Just feel really excited and empowered. And even if you’re not in menopause, you’re excited about learning more. We’ve had so many young women show up to our events. They either come with their mom or just come on their own, and they’re like, thank you for creating this.

This is so cool. This is so interesting. I won’t be as afraid when I start to go through it. So I think because the millennials have been breaking so many of the taboos and obviously the Gen Z, yes, they’re going to be much more open. They’re not going to put up with any sort of taboo around the subject. Gen X is more tolerant of that. But they’re really inspired, I would say, by the millennials. And then the boomers are just kind of like, I’m kind of tired of keeping this under the rug too long, and we do need to start talking about it. So it’s just so interesting to see the difference across these generations.

Ellie

And on the topic of stigma and taboo, with the awareness raised around mental health lately and people talking about it more openly, why do you think the stigma and the taboo around the topic of menopause have stayed with us for so long?

Sally

I think it has to do with menopause really equaling old age. There was this perception that you were over the hill, you weren’t fertile anymore, so you must be old and not giving back to society. And that’s why it’s such a taboo that needs to be desperately broken because that’s so wrong. And that’s why women are standing up and saying, I am giving back to society and men. Some of our biggest fans are men who have gone through this with their wives, or they’re just passionate about being part of it. I think there are just so many centuries of passing on. I would think old age and menopause go together when there was just a lack of education because you can be a menopause in your 30s or 40s, and obviously, 51 is the sweet spot. But we’re not old, and who cares?

Even when you’re 80, you’re not old; you’re in maybe the home stretch, but you can still live a vibrant life and give back to society. So yeah, it’s ageism; it all wraps in together. Right.

Ellie

What do you see as the future for the beauty lifestyle industry, and how is a woman positioning herself for the future?

Sally

Well, I think the future is more of this merging, which is already happening. Obviously, the merging of wellness products and beauty products is coming together because beauty is also feeling good inside and not just the external beauty. So I think it’s all wrapped together, but that’s probably more of the present day. I see future retailers really responding to that, trying to figure out how to merchandise these solutions more so the consumer finds the solutions easier in the store. I think there’s a lot more service that has to come to the consumer. I think there’s been such an incredible explosion of telehealth companies and different ways of getting health care that I think is part of, in a way, merging with what we’re doing. And there’s so much innovation happening in that space that is also affecting the beauty industry. I mean, think about the explosion of spas and medical spas, right, where you can get services.

So I think that could even have a big impact on how we eventually sell our products, too, because the consumer is going in, she’s talking about her skin, she’s talking about perhaps her sexual wellness issues. It’s this whole self that’s really being treated and not just one dimension of it. Right.

Ellie

If you were to give advice to other entrepreneurs who are looking to create innovative brands and products that cater to niche markets and have particularly elusive consumers such as yours, what advice would you give?

Sally

Well, know that it’s going to take time. Nothing is fast when creating a new category or targeting an elusive consumer. And so you’ve got to have honestly the right financial modelling done where you’re not expecting this incredible growth explosion in the first year or two. It’s going to take a while, and you have to invest a lot upfront in not only hard work, that sweat equity piece, but also the marketing piece to really get the message out and to reach and try different things, test and learn to reach your elusive consumer. So it’s just a lot of it comes down to how you think about your capital efficiency, how you think about your financial modelling and some of those very important foundational things that go into running a startup. Right.

Ellie

And you talked a little bit earlier about the accessibility of data and being able to invest in certain data pools. What importance has data had for your organisation, and how do you think startup companies can get that data from their consumers when they might not be at a stage where they can invest too much in market research, for instance?

Sally
Yeah, I mean, there’s a lot of data. If you’re running an online business, there’s a ton of data, so you’ve got tools already set up through Shopify if you use the Shopify platform. But beyond that, it’s important that you hire people who love data but are not so bogged down in data that they can’t make a decision. So, in a startup, you’ve got to move so fast. But I think what we’ve really been passionate about is hiring people on our team who love data, can use it effectively, make decisions quickly, test and learn from that data and move on. And it should be everyone. It should not just be relegated to the head of Digital or the loyalty employee. It needs to be across the whole organisation. Everyone needs to be steeped in data. And I think, given Michelle and my background, we really respect data.

I think you can get into a trap of, know, I’m not going to really listen to that data, but because we’ve grown up in corporate environments and different environments, I think we really respond to data. But at the end of the day, obviously, it must be the art and science. You have to make the call at some point. Test and learn, though. That’s the biggest advice that I have. Get more data by testing and learning.

Ellie

Right? I want to ask you finally about a few key takeaways from both the company’s and corporations’ point of view, but also the consumer’s point of view. So, starting with the companies, what would you advise them in this particular space, if they’re operating in this space or if they’re thinking just to be able to advertise better and target women of this age group? What tips would you give?

Sally

Well, I think know some of the underpinnings of this consumer. I mean, she is very discerning. She likes personalised service. Now, that doesn’t mean that you have to personalise everything, but she likes that personal touch, I should say. So there’s just, I think, just knowing the consumer and no matter what industry that you’re in, there’s some really important insights that cross all the industries. She’s very sceptical at first, so you have to build trust. And word of mouth is super important. We know it is with the other generations, too, but it’s like literally a physical word of mouth. It’s not just what I see on social media I’m going to respond to and buy. She really has to hear from her girlfriends if that’s a good product or not.

Ellie

And for the consumers themselves, exploring the space, which, with 50 million plus women now in their menopause, what steps should they take to ensure they get the best products for their buck?

Sally

I think doing the research online is a very efficient way of looking at consumer reviews and reaching out. She’s curious. Maybe it’s a high-ticket item or something she’s ingesting. She should have no problem contacting the company and learning more. It’s taking the time to do the research and find out. Ask around. Ask around to your immediate community. But a lot of our customers use reviews, and if the reviews are good and they read them, they do. They read the reviews, and they do their homework before they buy anything. Right.

Ellie

Well, Sally, thank you so much for your time today. Before we wrap up, is there anything else you want our listeners to hear?

Sally

Well, you had so many great questions. I can’t think of anything that you didn’t cover. I encourage people not to be afraid of going after this segment. It’s a really exciting, huge white space when you think about it. There are so many opportunities. And I think the ageing population is also just an incredible white space for different services and different products. Whether you’re in the fashion industry, or the beauty industry, or the automotive industry, there’s so much innovation yet to happen to better service this customer.

Ellie

Right. And I love something you wrote on your website about how some of the smartest women are in this age group. Yes, it’s important to highlight that, I think.

Sally

Yeah. And I think my advice, too, is to lean on your network for me. I already had so many women in this age group because they were my friends, my colleagues and all of my different industry friends, so I just picked their brains. And before I started Womaness, I got a lot of really good feedback from those women about what to do and what not to do. They did not want to see me fail, and I know Michelle did the same thing with her friend, so you look for those common themes because I grew up in the Midwest. I live in the Midwest. Michelle’s in New York. So we had the coastal perspective, the Midwest perspective. So it’s really important just to keep listening and keep asking questions.

Ellie

Thank you so much for your time and all the work that you do to spread on this topic.

Sally

Thank you, Ellie. Thanks for the opportunity to tell my story.

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